Help!

[Saru]

So, we just got back from an amusement park today, with my sisters/brothers and a friend. (not my friend) somehow it was brought up the guy was gay, which he is, he wasn't here when the conversation was brought up, but my family hushed it down as he came by. Once we got home, I brought it up with my mom, why did she think gays were evil?

This is what she said literally word for word. *Note we're Presbyterian/Non Denominational*

"Sam (me), I'm sorry you do not know this. I sincerely am, so I will have to set it straight for you. (lol)

Gays, or should I say homosexuals, are men and women and men-women who at an early age make a declaration of war on God. They choose to lead their disgustingly filthy empty lives, and try to fill their horrid souls with sex with little innocent boys, crack, heroin and other dangerous things. Their thing called "pride" is simply an affront to God, much like their bizarre pagan worship ceremonies. I am sorry you've been deceived by Satan to believe that gays will go to heaven, but I guess thats what you get for being public schooled."


So... I don't know what to do. Any help on how to deal with this? She also wants me to re-read genesis, and matthew, and leviticus. *sigh* her reasoning is when she was little she was a fag hag, and she saw her gay friends converting. Ok.... She also literally straight up told me anyone who didn't believe her world view was wrong, because her world view was the bible's world view. Then told me to get out of her room and away from her, because I called her "honey" (my gay side slipped out )

Does anyone know some good arguments that well, homosexuality isn't a choice? I mean we all know that, but she said she wants proof. And of course this site wouldn't work because,well lets face it, it's run by a homosexual "agenda." GASP! (God, I hate the word "agenda")

[Zerbie]

Hey Sam,

Hang in there and take care of yourself. Make sure you are emotionally well and strong first, and from there, approach the relationship with your mom in the way that is healthiest.

Do you live with your parents? Do you live on your own? The answer to these questions will have a big impact on how you relate with your parents. If you depend on your mom for shelter or support, you may want to NOT challenge her now. Are you ready to come out to her? If not, then you may want to let this matter wait until you are, even if that's another year or two or more.

I'm sorry to say that probably any source you present that homosexuality is NOT a choice, will not do the job, because it sounds like her mind is really made up for now. If so, then anything arguing another viewpoint is something she will find flaws with, whether it's the author, whether it's the studies, whether it's how someone translates the Bible, etc.

I'd be more interested to know why she used to be 'a fag hag' and has since transitioned to this current belief system. There must be a story there. If you knew why her current way of thinking is so important to her, you might then know how to gently address whatever the real issue is. It depends on so many factors. Is she married to your dad? Is he still fervently anti-gay? If he is, then your mom may be deeply invested in supporting your dad's viewpoint as well, which would make it two against one, leaving you in a very uncomfortable place.

A lot to think about. I suggest whatever you do say to challenge your mom and present other evidence- IF you do! - go slowly, and think in terms of months and years rather than hope for an immediate change in her attitude. Her mind is hers, and she may choose not to change it.

It's also okay for you not to take this issue on with her. Take care of Sam, that comes first.

[BrianB]

You can't prove something is not. That is a logical impossibility. You can only prove what is. The only thing you can do is give her evidence that people are born with their orientation. She will most likely reject that too since it doesn't fit what she "knows" to be true. Probably the most productive thing you can do for you mom is to pray for her. It's hard to stay hurt or mad at someone when you're praying for them. Zerbie gave some great advice too. I wouldn't be too quick to come out to my parents if I'm still depending on them for food and shelter. A lot of teens end up on the street that way. This link should give you arguments to counter what your mom is telling you about the bible. http://www.soulforce.org/article/1365

[Saru]

Yea, I got a text from my dad today (he's in Chicago doing a storie on global warming, cuz he's a reporter.) "I heard you called your mother horrible names. How dare you try and pull that while I'm away on a trip. And I can't believe you actually think homosexuality is ok? That is nothing short of bizarre, and you have the audacity to try and brainwash your brothers and sisters into thinking that? If your attitude isn't changed when I get home the next thing that will change is your place of residence" Ok wow. Once again my mom lied to my dad about what was said. But still, I remembered that one quote:

God grant me the serenity to
Accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

And I realized my parents will never see the light *in a sense* so there's no reason getting kicked out trying to show them. I showed my mom a link from a gay-Christian site, and she said the homosexual agenda poisoned their minds. So I apologized to my mom and dad (though of course it wasn't sincere) and I'll just let this lie under the covers for a bit.

[Zerbie]

Oh, Sam, I'm sorry you hear such painful words from your parents!!


I am glad that you are taking care of yourself and making sure you still have your roof over your head. You did right, taking care of yourself. Keep hangin' in there.
Best wishes.
Z

[Daniel]

Hi Sam,

The words you relate from your parents are pretty hared to bear. And I am so sorry that you have to live through this time with them as they are right now.

What I am going to write now may sound very strange, perhaps even odd.

There is no winning here. There is no convincing. There is no proving that gay people are children of God.

Have you read the Zen Art of War? If not, this may be the time to do so. It's a very interesting book. It teaches one to use the strength of the opposition against them. How? To yield. To be soft.

That's what you did when you said you were sorry. Good going. This may not be the time to draw a line in the sand.

Wishing you all good things.

Daniel

[bnmoore]

Your profile says that you are 19 and have a job as restaurant manager. Is there no way that you can remove yourself from that environment? You can't actually sue your parents or any other Christians for malpractice. Acting from enlightened self-interest is not selfish.

I bailed from my toxic familial environment and was a teen runaway at 16 in 1971. I don't know that I would still be alive if I hadn't. I've already voiced my opinions about the causes of substance abuse, depression, and suicide among gay people.

Although there may be problems with some of the wording this article at livestrong is pretty good:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/13933-homosexuality/

Also the talking points at glaad.org are probably a good read for any LGBTQ person.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

Your profile says that you are 19 and have a job as restaurant manager. Is there no way that you can remove yourself from that environment?.

Good question. When I heard Sam lived with parents, I thought maybe he was in school full time and they are giving him housing and helping pay the way through school.

Again, it all depends. Sam. Do you work full time? Do you earn enough at this restaurant to live on your own? perhaps with a friend or a couple of friends where you could rent a house together, or a large apartment, and split the rent? If all of that is possible, and you aren't relying on your parents to fund college, it's an option to think seriously about. You'll want a plan that makes sense with your goals for the future, so this may or may not be a good idea.

[Saru]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Good question. When I heard Sam lived with parents, I thought maybe he was in school full time and they are giving him housing and helping pay the way through school.

Again, it all depends. Sam. Do you work full time? Do you earn enough at this restaurant to live on your own? perhaps with a friend or a couple of friends where you could rent a house together, or a large apartment, and split the rent? If all of that is possible, and you aren't relying on your parents to fund college, it's an option to think seriously about. You'll want a plan that makes sense with your goals for the future, so this may or may not be a good idea.

Nope. The restaurant was going downhill, and I had my suspicions that the owner was stealing money. So I left for another job where at the moment I do make less, but in about a year I may be making at least %40 more per paycheck, for less work. However, I have been scouting, and cannot find any realistic apartment options. I live in a very rich town, so even the most slummest of apartments, filled with drugs etc are about $500 a month out of my reach. And all my friends either live with their parents while their parents pay for their college, or live in dorms their parents pay for. SO I really have no potential roomies, and I live in a very homophobic and conservative town, and I'm not exactly the most butch gay man out there. So getting an apartment with a random person may be a bit odd. Thanks for all the help though guys <3 Around September hopefully I'll have gotten enough $$$ to pay for this semester of college, gotten a raise at my job, and have hopefully found some suitable roommates to room with. Because this house is such a dysfunctional house. (My dad works for 700 Club/Focus on the family or w/e its called, and my Mom owns a business, but on the side runs a massive Tea Party operation, and she just got back from a meeting that mocked someone who support gay marriage.) *sigh*

[Zerbie]

Then it sounds like you're doing all you can. You seem to have a good sense of your options for future, that's great. Til things change and you can be on your own someplace (could a new town be an option someday?), just keep hanging in there. Give life some time, take opportunities as they come, and in a while (a few months, year or two) you can get yourself to a much better place.

[tymejumper]

Sam, I am so sorry that you had to hear this and put up with this. Parents can be cruel at times and it sounds like fear is speaking.

I would just lay low, not talk about it anymore and move out when you can. Is there any type of Trevor Project, or PFLAG around the area? They may be able to help you, you can find them online.

hang in there (((HUGS)))

[Saru]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

Sam, I am so sorry that you had to hear this and put up with this. Parents can be cruel at times and it sounds like fear is speaking.

I would just lay low, not talk about it anymore and move out when you can. Is there any type of Trevor Project, or PFLAG around the area? They may be able to help you, you can find them online.

hang in there (((HUGS)))

Nope. I mean my friends (even the Christian ones) are obviously ok with it, but I can tell they don't really like here about it. One does, but she has a crush on me... So go figure.

In my school this poor guy got a (I believe the term is breast implants..?) because he wanted to become a girl, and the first day he showed up to school with breasts he was beaten almost to death. And still showed up as soon as he could get out of the hospital and came to school everyday with his head held high as people spit at him etc. props to him

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Saru

Nope. I mean my friends (even the Christian ones) are obviously ok with it, but I can tell they don't really like here about it. One does, but she has a crush on me... So go figure.

So your Christian friends are 'Ok' but don't like hear about it? With friends like that....

I am thinking that REAL friends are not just Ok, but actually will talk about things with you and listen to what you have to say- that is- you don't have to be editing yourself all the time.

[Saru]

Originally Posted by Daniel

So your Christian friends are 'Ok' but don't like hear about it? With friends like that....

I am thinking that REAL friends are not just Ok, but actually will talk about things with you and listen to what you have to say- that is- you don't have to be editing yourself all the time.

Well its more of, I can talk, but they get this wierd "oh god not this again" look in their eyes. And I don't even bring it up that often >.>

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Saru

Well its more of, I can talk, but they get this wierd "oh god not this again" look in their eyes. And I don't even bring it up that often >.>

I understand what you are saying: I've been out to my parents and siblings for over 20 years now, and it's only in the last 3 or so that I can use the word gay and the air in the room doesn't freeze for a second. They still don't know quite what to do or how to act, but there has been a change. Yeah- it took a long time.

When I first came out I gave my mother an ultimatum after she disinvited my boyfriend to Thanksgiving dinner. I said that if he wasn't coming then neither was I. She didn't like it, but got the message. This set the tone for everything that came afterward. In retrospect, I set some healthy boundaries.

That 'weird' look? Your family and friends may simply to clueless as to how to respond. After all, they may be suffering from a deficit of information. And that is the hard part: a lot of time can be spent educating those who are uncomfortable with being educated. And ignorance is not bliss, especially for the gay person who has to endure those who are immovable in their opposition and hardheartedness.

I look back and smile now, but I still remember all the times I used the word 'gay' in casual conversation with my family. They got that weird deer in the headlights look.

Sometimes I think we can help others to not be afraid by not being afraid ourselves. And that takes some doing. And some daring.

Hang in here!

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by Saru

(My dad works for 700 Club/Focus on the family or w/e its called, and my Mom owns a business, but on the side runs a massive Tea Party operation, and she just got back from a meeting that mocked someone who support gay marriage.) *sigh*

I suggested this without a link in my last reply but in order to avoid using the terminology used in 'Anti' arguments it's really helpful:

http://www.glaad.org/talkingabout

Using the same words reinforces them.

SoulForce isn't working alone either:

http://www.glaad.org/faith

[offog]

I too hope you can get away from your parents soon. It's hard to go on having to hide who you are. If you decide to come out to your parents once you're in a position to get your own place, wait until you're actually moved out all the way.

A couple of months ago I read a post at another web site from the aunt of a young fellow who'd been kicked out of a Christian high school for being gay. (I think someone on Soulforce posted a link to that item.) His conservative Christian parents slagged him and he ran to his aunt's place. The aunt's been a tower of strength through everything.

When the aunt drove to the kid's place to pick up his belongings, she found that his parents had given almost all his stuff away and were mourning him as if he was dead.

The way your parents seem to be, they might just change the locks on you and not let you get your stuff if they find out your "secret" prematurely.

[stav]

Originally Posted by Saru

Gays, or should I say homosexuals, are men and women and men-women who at an early age make a declaration of war on God. They choose to lead their disgustingly filthy empty lives, and try to fill their horrid souls with sex with little innocent boys, crack, heroin and other dangerous things. Their thing called "pride" is simply an affront to God, much like their bizarre pagan worship ceremonies. I am sorry you've been deceived by Satan to believe that gays will go to heaven, but I guess thats what you get for being public schooled."

how do you think she would respond to educational materials?????

e.g: from a documentary "because the bible told me so". It has Reverent Tu Tu and several other really good ministers and pastors talking on the subject. It taught me about 'biblical literalism', which is what your mum's doing - citing key texts from Leviticus out of context, for example.

http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2807909.htm

Tell her that if she combines linen and wool, that's an abomination because it says so in Leviticus, and that eating rabbit is an abomination, as is sewing two seed types in one hole in the ground. Levitical prohibitions were part of the then 'holiness code'--rituals and practice relevant to the then times. They were not 'innately' immoral wrongs.

Two search terms for you to help you: biblical hermeneutics and exegesis. I have some really really good scholarly/theological articles, in published journals, on the homosexuality question contrasted against those two terms. They are pdfs. I can steer you to them if you would like copies. Basically, it's getting pretty hard to sustain your mum's view.

[stav]

Does anyone know some good arguments that well, homosexuality isn't a choice? I mean we all know that, but she said she wants proof. And of course this site wouldn't work because,well lets face it, it's run by a homosexual "agenda." GASP! (God, I hate the word "agenda")

Amongst the best source of evidence I have been able to garner, is the monozygotic (identical) and dizygotic (fraternal) twins studies. They go something like this:

The rate of homosexual concordence in dizygotic twins is at the *same* rate as the background population. That is, two non-identical twins have the same chance of each being gay as the overall rate of homosexuality--somewhere between 5 to 15 %.

The rate of homosexual concordence in monozygotic twins is substantially higher--over 70%. That is, *most* identical twins are of the same sexual orientation.

That's one piece of evidence. Another is the studies that look at birth order.

Scientists have discovered that for *boys*, the more children a woman has, the greater chance the *boy* has of being gay, the more children a woman has. There is some tendency for some kind of intra-uterine event, where the woman's endocrinological and immunological systems impose biological events on the non-born to encourage the emergence of homosexuality.

Then there's this. Every mammalian species on the planet has homosexuality as part of its evolutionary pattern. It's normal. In some duck species, for example, a male duck can have a life-long female duck partner, and a live-in male duck (a gay duck). It's a three-way relationship. It's normal.

In dolphins, the homosexual male dolphin facilitates social *cohesion* amongst the herd. The homosexual dolphin enjoys prestiged social status. It's normal.

We do have the 'nature nurture' debate in humans that is fiercely explored. However, even the environmentalists (nurture) tend to argue that there is an environmental event or events, perhaps socio-emotional, perhaps intra-uterine, that leads to a *permanent* emergence of a *normal* homosexual state.

We have numerous hypotheses from numerous disciplines that have postulated what is occurring. No-one truly knows.

Is there any particular area you would like more information on? I am really happy to help.

cheers
stav

[Saru]

Thanks I'll check out the sites. However, I had already brought up that shrimp was an abomination, and she told me "grow up and stop looking for empty solutions." And on the animal thing she said "and don't tell me it's ok because a few demented animals do it."