Short Change Churches

[Dash]

Hi Zerbie,

Scripture is now being quoted as a way of proving that, “No, you are all false prophets if you don’t toe the line, and agree fundamentally with standard Church doctrine. Either agree with it or leave it completely.” (just what I’m getting from the overall theme of this thread)

Many of us here are queer people who come from strongly religious church backgrounds. As queer folk, we’ve been bludgeoned by scripture until we have bloody bible marks all over our souls. Quoting it to us in this fashion is kind of insulting...as if we needed any reminder that scripture would separate us from God and community. There are thousands of verses that condemn humanity and promise our destruction.

I believe that his position, buttressed by such use of scripture cannot be held. By using scripture in the way that he does, he will ultimately find himself surrounded by references that condemn him as a gay man. In fact, there are only five references (if my memory serves) that are used to condemn us. These are the five wounds that nail us to Christ’s cross.

There are two lessons one can learn from a sword:

One can learn to cut and kill...or...one can learn to never again use it that way.

Scripture is very much like that. For myself, and many others, it is never again to be used in the fashion that Awediot understands. This is why he is annoyed by our “watered down” Christianity.

We must lay aside the sword. We, especially, who have been abused by it.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Dash

Hi Zerbie,

Scripture is now being quoted as a way of proving that, “No, you are all false prophets if you don’t toe the line, and agree fundamentally with standard Church doctrine. Either agree with it or leave it completely.” (just what I’m getting from the overall theme of this thread)

Many of us here are queer people who come from strongly religious church backgrounds. As queer folk, we’ve been bludgeoned by scripture until we have bloody bible marks all over our souls. Quoting it to us in this fashion is kind of insulting...as if we needed any reminder that scripture would separate us from God and community. There are thousands of verses that condemn humanity and promise our destruction.

I believe that his position, buttressed by such use of scripture cannot be held. By using scripture in the way that he does, he will ultimately find himself surrounded by references that condemn him as a gay man. In fact, there are only five references (if my memory serves) that are used to condemn us. These are the five wounds that nail us to Christ’s cross.

There are two lessons one can learn from a sword:

One can learn to cut and kill...or...one can learn to never again use it that way.

Scripture is very much like that. For myself, and many others, it is never again to be used in the fashion that Awediot understands. This is why he is annoyed by our “watered down” Christianity.

We must lay aside the sword. We, especially, who have been abused by it.

this makes sense to me...

[awediot]

Damn Dash, you have had a number done on you.
I can understand how these passages rip open old wounds and I am sorry that you haven't found a way to heal them. But I have, and they speak to me and all I am attempting to do is share how. You are reading judgment and damnation of your own into my motives that isn't there.

Originally Posted by Dash

“No, you are all false prophets if you don’t toe the line, and agree fundamentally with standard Church doctrine. Either agree with it or leave it completely.” (just what I’m getting from the overall theme of this thread)

That is your own conclusion and your own past damage projected on me. I have a well worn badge of fundi victimization myself, but mine I keep in a memory album and others may be trying to see how to get it there. If you are not at that stage yet, don't undermine those who are. If you want to pick out the scripture you like and blow off what you don't, knock yourself out. Don't insist I, or others do the same...

By using scripture in the way that he does, he will ultimately find himself surrounded by references that condemn him as a gay man.

Do you think this is my first foray into these waters? That I haven't been surrounded by, swallowed and regurgitated as pearls, these nine inch nail references? Hell, I've got a couple of the CDS...You vastly underestimate me my friend... And please, I am right here. Its kind of hard to talk behind someones back on a public forum. You are welcome to address me directly. My bite is lots worse than my bark but gnawing on my monitor frightens my roommate. You are physically safe anyway...

This is why he is annoyed by our “watered down” Christianity.

True. No secret here. It is "watered down." I am curious as to why some still consider themselves a Christian when they abandon all of its basic tenets. I realize it is a touchy area, as you prove, but it is something I really want to know and hope I can help others refine within themselves as they do for me. There are differing psychological and emotional factors at play, and I think one is healthier than the other... So what? So do you...Last thing I want is the power to say: "you're going to hell" if you do X or don't do Z. I have no absolute certainty if or how or why or by what we are ultimately sorted. I think we will be, but I'm not the one to do it. I do not mistake myself for judge or jury, maybe a little lawyer, but not the arresting officer, law giver, long arm or snitch. I'm more like a "CAUTION: BRIDGE OUT" sign. Or I try to be... but alot of people are going way to fast to see me, so I trip the ones I can reach. They don't like it, but if there is a chasm ahead, they like it better than that...If there's not, then I'll be sorry, but no real harm done.... I've good reason to think there is

All this and you still haven't addressed the Question. It is not my own, it is not new, it is the very first to be encountered in every sincere, spiritual journey, it will be the last, it sets you off in one direction or the other, and it won't go away when you log off... Get as defensive and hurt and angry as you must, and answer it. Find a way to answer it, not better excuses to avoid it or complicate it out of reach.

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Well, do you have an Answer? I haven't. No, I certainly haven't. But perhaps typing at each other will help us to understand something that we don't yet. Or have you got further insights here that you are still holding back? If ya do, c'mon, spill! Share what you've discovered. This four-year-old wants to understand.

Zerbie, I have my beliefs and I have answered this question for myself (you no doubt know what my answer is). My "holding back" is not meant to play games or manipulate anybody, but to emphasize the power and impact of this simple question. It has divided nations and set them against each other. It has split families apart and set the left hemisphere against the right in not only my mind, and it will stand as the line dividing the planet in its next world war. It is the first and last question to exist and the inability or unwillingness to answer it, speaks for itself. It is one of those things one must sort out for themselves. My reticence is for that reason.

Originally Posted by Dash

There are two lessons one can learn from a sword:
One can learn to cut and kill...or...one can learn to never again use it that way.

...somethings deserve to be cut from us and killed... One can learn to use a sword as it was meant to be used, and await the day it can be abandoned.

Now, why do you make a distinction between the 2 quotes we talked about? They both say to follow their teaching and not another one.

Zerb, ...and, they both say to follow their teaching, and not THE other one... They are the embodiment of distinction, and I didn't make it. They themselves pose the question. I am but an unhumble messenger...

Daniel, thanks for the link, but I don't want to read any more books on what the Buddha said. I by no means know it all, but I am not unfamiliar with much of it... I want to know what you, personally think about it, why and if its reconcilable between faiths in a way I haven't seen.

This has boiled down, and merged with the Theocracy-The Threat is Real thread and deserves a world of its own... Big new, uncomfortable thread (Ooooh! A Poll! A Higher Power Poll) to hopefully get more involved... Don't you guys go away! ...to Be Continued There...

Nate...you can come too!

[Dash]

Awediot,

I never intended to address your question. I address your methods. Nonetheless...

Of course there's a higher power. I don't believe in God, though. Those are such silly words. As if I'd say, "I believe in my friend Ryan."

Nonsense.

I have an intimate relationship with One I love. Sometimes, after long years of living with one another, the lines get a little blurred. It's hard to tell where I end and my Lover begins. We are one. That's the way it was meant to be. If I say "I am God" the reply comes without hesitation, "AND I AM JAY."

So you haven't had the relevant experience. That's okay. These words don't make sense to you and you think we are mistaken. Your limitations...your boundaries...are not our fences. That would most certainly be a mistake.

And once again...

The wise warrior lays down the sword forever.

[awediot]

Holy Toledo! -you sure know alot about me Dash. Who needs Briggs Meyer? ...you know my relevant experiences with flowing Deity, what does or doesn't make sense to me, what I think are mistakes, my limitations and boundaries and how and why I try to fence you in with them, where my thoughts have been and are going and are doing to everybody else on this site... ya may as well ignore me all together since I've no desire to be the source of such predictable boredom... But you knew I'd say that...

and for your warrior's sake, I hope his metaphorical war is over or he's a sitting duck...
and if it is, have him pick up a mirror. See where that goes.

Wish my war was over.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

Daniel, thanks for the link, but I don't want to read any more books on what the Buddha said. I by no means know it all, but I am not unfamiliar with much of it... I want to know what you, personally think about it, why and if its reconcilable between faiths in a way I haven't seen.

From your sentence above, you seem to want to know what I think about Buddhism, and if it is reconcilable between the two faiths, that is, Buddhism and Christianity. Now why would I want to put myself in a position where, with your self-assigned lawyerly stance clearly defined, I would be 'tripped' up? (to use your own words). There are enough lawyers in the world. How about simply being a friend on the Way.

[Dash]

Originally Posted by awediot

That is your own conclusion and your own past damage projected on me.

Originally Posted by awediot

A Church, THE Church depends on being the vanishing point giving all else a perspective to grow from. It is, right or wrong, the bedrock society adjusts around and you build your life from. It is not meant to shift to whims. It is there to disagree with you, to convict you, confront, comfort and to change you... Indeed, Love it or Leave it for another.

I'm just reading what you wrote, neighbor. I don't think I'm projecting.
Perhaps I'm being argumentative now, however. And really...I'm throwing someone's words back at them. Sheesh! That's even more obnoxious than quoting scripture at them. (bad Dash!! bad Dash)

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

From your sentence above, you seem to want to know what I think about Buddhism, and if it is reconcilable between the two faiths, that is, Buddhism and Christianity. Now why would I want to put myself in a position where, with your self-assigned lawyerly stance clearly defined, I would be 'tripped' up? (to use your own words). There are enough lawyers in the world. How about simply being a friend on the Way.

Dan, maybe its just me, but I want a belief system, a religion or worldly outlook, that cannot be easily tripped up, that can withstand lawyerly dissection and places me in a position I can defend, eventually put more than faith in and use as my rock. I do not need to have every answer about it, but I do need it to be able to fight the good fight in the face of any and every question. And it must be able to differentiate between the unknowable, the unknown, and what I'd rather not know. After all, it is my Truth, my Sensibility, ability and desire to care and sacrifice for, how I see myself and others in the big scheme of things.... Dan, I do say this as a friend (just ask my poor friends). It stuns and saddens me to see such a basic question as to the nature of God cause such trick of the light distress when so much relies on and can build only from an answer... even an answer we would rather not say.

I used to want unquestionably, a partner who shared my beliefs. That does cover alot of ground and leg work up front. Now, I think I could be happy with someone who asks the same questions...

I still have a wierd time connecting as fibre-optic, virtual friends who I have never seen or heard. I think some of my 3D friends are cyborgs and you all are just clever programs churning out responses for my viewing pleasure... Then I remember I'm not paying anything and you get all fleshy again... gad durn technology...

..Let me ask, what do you want in a friend?


Dash, kinda lost which quotes referenced what,

Originally Posted by awediot
A Church, THE Church depends on being the vanishing point giving all else a perspective to grow from. It is, right or wrong, the bedrock society adjusts around and you build your life from. It is not meant to shift to whims. It is there to disagree with you, to convict you, confront, comfort and to change you... Indeed, Love it or Leave it for another.

I'd forgotten where we began 'til your pulled this up... I stand by it, but hope anyone understands, and I think within the entire contexts it is clear, that I do not define any particular "church". The Church, is YOUR Church, it is YOUR Beacon, your teacher and leader and guru, and once you make it Yours, and place it in essence above you and society, changing its sacrosanct status or doctrine should, to say the least, be done with the Highest regard, if done at all. It is one of the only institutions intended to dominate your very thoughts...

I look at the search for a therapist in the same way... How much are we supposed to just LIKE it? ---It is a critical decision to find a thing to give yourself to..

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

Dan, maybe its just me, but I want a belief system, a religion or worldly outlook, that cannot be easily tripped up, that can withstand lawyerly dissection and places me in a position I can defend, eventually put more than faith in and use as my rock. I do not need to have every answer about it, but I do need it to be able to fight the good fight in the face of any and every question. And it must be able to differentiate between the unknowable, the unknown, and what I'd rather not know. After all, it is my Truth, my Sensibility, ability and desire to care and sacrifice for, how I see myself and others in the big scheme of things.... Dan, I do say this as a friend (just ask my poor friends). It stuns and saddens me to see such a basic question as to the nature of God cause such trick of the light distress when so much relies on and can build only from an answer... even an answer we would rather not say.

Awe- please try to see this from your readers perspective (and not diminutize my name). In your previous post you referred to yourself- not a belief system- as being the lawyer type guy who warns those of their mistakes and even trips them up before they fall into some pit of misunderstanding. Now you are using the same words and saying they mean something else. This sounds very bait and switch-y to me. Not only that: I still can't agree with you. I don't see why any belief system should be used as a rock.(Or do you mean a rock to cling to?) From all that you say above, it sounds like you want a great defense mechanism, a shield, a club. I short: a weapon. Why you express your needs in this way to beyond my ability to understand. A phrase from A Course in Miracles come to mind here: The Truth Needs No Defense.

The truth is, I, nor any one else can tell you what the nature of God is. Case in point: it's your job to figure out why the "I am God" idea gets under your skin so much. I really can't find the magic answer to your discomfort. Seems to me that you want me to do your work for you, served up on silver platter. Seems to me like you want to OWN this stuff. You want to possess it. As if one can. You really should read: Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, but from what you've already said in a previous post, this kind of thing may not suit you. It's pretty heavy-lifting stuff.

You might contemplate that your struggle, in part, may have as much to do with what is called the 'ego' and it's ever present desire to buttress up its existence. (yes...this is a Buddhist viewpoint...but they, more than anyone else, deal with matters of the mind) You say "my Truth" and "my Sensibility". When you can start to see that there is nothing to acquire but everything to Be, well...that's a different matter.

I used to want unquestionably, a partner who shared my beliefs. That does cover alot of ground and leg work up front. Now, I think I could be happy with someone who asks the same questions...

Yes....I can see that. This was one of my big concerns at one time. Much less important now. What I really hear you saying is that you want to feel safe with someone.

..Let me ask, what do you want in a friend?

Comradery:

The noun comradery has one meaning:

Meaning #1: the quality of affording easy familiarity and sociability
Synonyms: chumminess, camaraderie, comradeliness, comradeship

[Zerbie]

What I want in a friend is authenticity.


Daniel, I too understand some of what Awe says to be shifting/changing as the conversation goes on, and I'm not sure if the shift is in my perception or Awe's use of the written word. Perhaps a bit o' both?
The remark about finding a partner who shares beliefs or asks the questions - wow! - I didn't hear it at all the way you did, Daniel. It is very difficult to continue a "spiritual" life or practice if you have a partner who is not in some way practicing too. I hear Awe to be waiting for someone who plumbs the depths of life the way he does. Is that close, Awe? I imagine with a partner who doesn't really delve into the questions, you would be bored.

Awe, I like what Daniel says about defending. Truly, there is nothing to defend. Or at least, nothing that WE can defend. If it is true, it is true whether we defend it or not.

Oh and - hey waita minute! I am not a piece of software!!! Grrrrr, snarl. I might hafta look you up (where the heck are ya? Kansas??? Colorado???) and smack ya one, fer the pony poo and the software remarks. Grrrr.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Daniel, I too understand some of what Awe says to be shifting/changing as the conversation goes on, and I'm not sure if the shift is in my perception or Awe's use of the written word. Perhaps a bit o' both?

Yes. Excellent point. I think it's both, but when the 'defensive' stuff kicks in - on either side- everything gets messy.

Like your word re friends: authenticity. I want this too, but in an environment where I can relax. I don't want to be on pointe all the time.

[awediot]

hate quoting myself...

Originally Posted by Awe

I do not mistake myself for judge or jury, maybe a little lawyer, but not the arresting officer, law giver, long arm or snitch. I'm more like a "CAUTION: BRIDGE OUT" sign. Or I try to be... but alot of people are going way to fast to see me, so I trip the ones I can reach. They don't like it, but if there is a chasm ahead, they like it better than that...If there's not, then I'll be sorry, but no real harm done.... I've good reason to think there is

Here, I mean lawyer as the one who presents a case, who fights for a side and defends a client... an appologist in a sense...

trip is meant to stall, to give pause forcefully in order to cause a re-examination of the situation before it is too late

Originally Posted by Awe

Daniel, maybe its just me, but I want a belief system, a religion or worldly outlook, that cannot be easily tripped up, that can withstand lawyerly dissection and places me in a position I can defend, eventually put more than faith in and use as my rock. I do not need to have every answer about it, but I do need it to be able to fight the good fight in the face of any and every question. And it must be able to differentiate between the unknowable, the unknown, and what I'd rather not know. After all, it is my Truth, my Sensibility, ability and desire to care and sacrifice for, how I see myself and others in the big scheme of things

Here, lawyerly is used the same way, only the subject is the case itself, hopefully strong enough to withstand the lawyerly analysis...

trip here means basically the same, but a little more along the lines of confuse or contradict... (I'm a jack of all trades)

Bait and switch? To make a spiritual point on Truisms? I wouldn't know how nor insult my audience, so don't me either please.

Originally Posted by Daniel

I don't see why any belief system should be used as a rock.(Or do you mean a rock to cling to?) From all that you say above, it sounds like you want a great defense mechanism, a shield, a club. I short: a weapon. Why you express your needs in this way to beyond my ability to understand.

A rock to build on. A foundation. A solid base. So when I form my defenses, set my shield or sadly am forced to bare a weapon, I am not doing so on quicksand.

A Course in Miracles: The truth needs no defense? Then what was the Equality Ride about? All the calls and e-mails to senators? The whole struggle to be seen as normal, loving and productive people against an onslaught of lies and misunderstandings? Truth is assaulted, insulted and targeted everyday. I find it, above nearly all else, in need of and worthy of defense.... (ironically:

Originally Posted by Daniel

The truth is, I, nor any one else can tell you what the nature of God is. Case in point: it's your job to figure out why the "I am God" idea gets under your skin so much. I really can't find the magic answer to your discomfort. Seems to me that you want me to do your work for you, served up on silver platter. Seems to me like you want to OWN this stuff. You want to possess it. As if one can. You really should read: Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, but from what you've already said in a previous post, this kind of thing may not suit you. It's pretty heavy-lifting stuff.

The simple existence, or not, of such a being as God, is not yet a question of its nature. It must come before any quandry of what the complexities of its nature may be. One is a fixed, stand alone nature that may or may not yield some understanding. The other, we can say anything we want about because it is in the saying that the lack of God can be not-found. I blather, therefore I am the I am... I know why the Claim "I AM GOD" gets under my skin::: Other than the tired, old, near unforgivable blasphemy and original sin thing, is just the megalomaniacal narcissistic assininity, even if All IS God. What if God is one of us? If THAT one be God, 1. fix some shit 2. explain some too, 3. why are you asst. Mgr. at Burger King? 4. Can You answer a simple question for me? -The notion mocks my religion (used to that), humps my spirit leg (not used to that), retards my logic (redundant) and poops on my capacity for hope and justice... OK, more 'n 'nuff said on that one... You say, I want to own and possess this stuff, yeah, "I AM GOD" ---Who's zoomin' who here? Can God not want to be Itself?...So, "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism," you say. (but Dash made me put my sword away) Heavy-lifting? Sounds insulting to say I'll GOOGLE it about such a weighty, unsuitable proposition, but I will... (hopes its got a better bait line than C.I.M.)

Originally Posted by Daniel

You might contemplate that your struggle, in part, may have as much to do with what is called the 'ego' and it's ever present desire to buttress up its existence. (yes...this is a Buddhist viewpoint...but they, more than anyone else, deal with matters of the mind) You say "my Truth" and "my Sensibility". When you can start to see that there is nothing to acquire but everything to Be, well...that's a different matter.

but...but...isn't contemplating my 'legos' just feeding them? Maybe I'll just take five and forget MYself..


Comradery camaraderie comradeliness comradeliness? on the comradeship-lolly-pop... carameled on my eyelids lips

Good answer. I'll try.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--------------------"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

No Fair... You guys slipped more in there since my last composingationism time...but I kinda covered the remisunderstandings (covered, not clarified). Is the lawyer and trip thing really that hard? And "defensive", or defending our/my/your version of truth, or defending Truth?

And Zerb, as far as my future partner goes, NONONO! I said he must be a deaf, Cajun melano, hung like a pony... and not sure where I called you a piece of software. Too busy to look. Sounds like something I might say... sorry,sorry,sorry, and I'm not in Kansas anymore...

Originally Posted by notAwediot

Daniel, I too understand some of what Awe says to be shifting/changing as the conversation goes on, and I'm not sure if the shift is in my perception or Awe's use of the written word. Perhaps a bit o' both?

Both but nail me down then... Seriously, I like it! (martyr card?)...thought conversations were s'posed to shift. Do the Dash thing and throw my own words back in me cyberface...Especially if I contradict myself...now thats a friend... (seriously not as sarcastic as it appears. The air gets pretty thin here in _________________, and I have occasionally read my posts days later and can agree with ya. Spank the discombobulation from me!)

[NathanATX]

I could use a (much smaller) dose of whatever you're taking, Awe.

[Zerbie]

I can't quotcha to ya and show you the shifts/changes because I don't remember them. Only remember that it happened, and I notice I am holding an inch of string instead of the entire ball of yarn, and I don't know when or where I dropped it. I tend to let these conversations slide as they go along.

Like you said, conversations do shift. I shift all the time. When it becomes confusing is if you say something and I respond with opposition, and your clarification of your original point sounds like the opposition I responded with. I think we aren't disagreeing more than on, maybe, about 2 things.

Absolute Truth (That one finds in religion, meditation, That Truth) needs no defending because whatever it is, it is. Regardless of us. Worldly actualities, like the anti-gay ridiculosity versus the actuality of harmless little me or Daniel or Dash or whoever innocently singing operas or typing at the keyboard, yes, actualities will need to be defended in the world. Emails and calls to senators to defend a position, to defend the as-yet not quite existent civil rights of queerfolk, those are necessary, because that deals with the actual concrete world.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Yes. Excellent point. I think it's both, but when the 'defensive' stuff kicks in - on either side- everything gets messy.

Like your word re friends: authenticity. I want this too, but in an environment where I can relax. I don't want to be on pointe all the time.

To play devil's advocate, Daniel, why bother getting en pointe? What have you to defend? Now, if someone is being constantly petty and mean, I'd get the heck outta there. But, if we're talking about friends? A friend wouldn't be being mean. They would be, well, a friend. I want my friends to feel safe with me, that they can share who they really are and what they really think and feel.

[Daniel]

Can't follow you awediot and honestly don't know how I should answer your last post which illustrates my last about standing on pointe. To answer whatever you were trying to say is like standing on pointe for me and at the moment my feet are tired. Ok? I'm just not up to it. Sorry.

Draining? You got that right. If you feel like I've attacked you, I'm sorry for that. Don't think I have more to say here....

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Ok. If you can take a breath and draw a line so can I.

I'll try to nail myself down here: half if not most of the slop I put up here come's from a non-linear way of thinking. It's just the way I am. It's conceptual more than literal and right-brain oriented more than left. In short. It's who and what I am and have become after some sitting on a cushion and having fallen in love at least once and trying to sort out my neurosis a bit.

Now I ain't no saint, but a line like "The Truth Needs No Defense" isn't something that makes sense to you because you haven't spend much if any time thinking about such things in a way that gives the words a frame of reference. To be blunt: my experience gives me the opinion that the only way to get this kind of frame of reference is through some kind of spiritual practice. Plain and Simple. That's the rock in the road that everyone comes to in one way or another. But that's another of my opinions.

You know the Hindu's (memory isn't crystal clear here) have a way of looking at this sort of thing and posit that there are different means to get to God as it were: the Devotional Path for one and the Rational Path being another. Most people fall into the first. It's easier. I would posit that you are firmly (at the moment) in the second. Ya gotta think things through. That's your way (if it is indeed your way) and I respect that. That kind of high altitude approach is a little daunting for anyone. Gotta check your gear.

Me? I'm the thinking man too, but that non-linear thing (I'm more Rumi than Plato) may be getting me into trouble here (that is, in our dialogue).

[Zerbie]

Yeah, from my frame of reference, Awe comes closest to being a Jnana Yogi.

The three paths to which Daniel refers are:

Bhakti Yoga
Jnana Yoga
Karma Yoga

Bhakti = devotion. prayer. Offering flowers, rituals. Singing worship songs. praising God.

Jnana Yoga = wisdom. Merciless questioning of self, mind, rational/suprarational concepts, religious tenets, studying of books, meditation practice, decades of contemplation on the world's various scriptures.

Karma Yoga = service. Feeding the hungry, clothing the cold and the naked, bringing water to human beings dying of thirst in the desert, funding medical care for the destitute, relieving pain physical and mental insofar as one is able.

I find that all three of these intersect hopelessly. But for convenience and simplicity, it is nice to have the terms.

[Daniel]

Ok. What are ya up to with the avatar change? Comment on the thread? How you feel today? What? Just curious. Should I duck?

[Daniel]

Out beyond ideas of Wrongdoing and Rightdoing, there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, and even the phrase 'eachother' doesn't make any sense.

-Rumi, c. 532 A.D.

[awediot]

RE:avatar, feelin' it, and feelin' felt like it a little bit. thought I'd go ahead and look like it, for a bit...(but basically just a costume change)

back to post...
What am I missing? (rhetorical question, or keep the list short please...)
I am completely flip-flopped in my views...

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Absolute Truth (That one finds in religion, meditation, That Truth) needs no defending because whatever it is, it is. Regardless of us. Worldly actualities, like the anti-gay ridiculosity versus the actuality of harmless little me or Daniel or Dash or whoever innocently singing operas or typing at the keyboard, yes, actualities will need to be defended in the world.

Just because a thing IS, regardless of us, doesn't mean we can't corrupt it...We usually do... I can make no distinction between absolute truths, and actualities. If a thing is TRUE it is actually what is. What would be an example of an untrue actuality? Either Zerbie is harmless or she's not. I can see where my perception of a pop can may differ from yours. That leaves us First (and for me foremost) just what the can IS. It IS a certain color, a height and width, a temp., X amount full, was drunk by Z, manufactured in Y etc... Those are absolute, irrefutable truths, utterly (and maybe only) independent of our perceptions. (that is the ROCK I referred to earlier). Now maybe you or I are colorblind or have lousy depth perception, Hate that flavor of pop, lost an eye in the country where it was made, whatever... and our perspective is skewed. That means one or the other of us may see the can less accurately than it merely IS. So we have a can, your neutral, accurate view, and my inexplicable loathing of it. ...Whether the topic is a can, an outfit, a crime, another person, weapons of mass destruction or Aliens, this, 'formula' always applies. Truth is Truth and is better off without adjectives...

...and if a Big, Spirit Truth is defeated, (Jews are good, stealing is wrong) the results are catastrophic. I fight to keep the mondo ones upheld more than the (flexible?) actualities... Someone not defending the truth about the lack weapons of mass destruction, has cost dearly...

This is no doubt an example of my merciless (ouch), linear, Jnana Yoga, left brained thinking (I'm left handed BTW). If you can present an opposing, complimentary example of a charitable, non-linear, Karma Yoga, right-brained method for distinguishing Truth, it would be very much appreciated, because I am lost to you guys at the moment and would truly like to understand... ( I know you suggested a spiritual practice to a new framework, Daniel, but for insurmountable reasons, it ain't gonna happen. You earlier also said," Why you express your needs in this way is beyond my ability to understand." And it is equally beyond my comprehension why I should wish to pursue a path that confuses my desire to defend truth, or makes the simple question as to the existence of God unanswerable... Crazy world we live in, 'eh?)

To help me out, are Absolute truth and actualities just arbitrary matters of degrees of importance?

and Daniel, thanks I think for the "daunting" compliment... and thats the third reference to a cushion lately...what are you not saying?

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I need to post stuff when I think I'm done writing on it. Lately by the time I do, what needs to be replied to has been added on...

Out beyond ideas of Wrongdoing and Rightdoing, there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, and even the phrase 'eachother' doesn't make any sense.

-Rumi, c. 532 A.D.

Thanks... You are succeeding in getting me tired of hearing myself type: 'BUT', but...if 'each other' doesn't make sense, you lie there alone... I'll meet you, but you won't know I'm there...

You see, The "just Be" sentiment I do grasp as much as it allows itself to be. It erases my "I" though and succeeds at the mastery of the Nothing...

I can enjoy brief excursions into meditative Zensibility, but It allows no world to explore if I stay.