Taking Action

[keltic63]

OK, I did something today. I saw this news storyBaptist Convention Adapts Stance on Homosexuality and decided that I needed to very politely let Rev Bill Sanderson know that his actions of introducing this "motion" would be divisive and hurtful. It was easy to look up his church website and find his email address. This afternoon I sent him the following message:

Dear Rev. Sanderson,

Greetings to you in the name of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

I am writing to express my extreme disappointment in your recent action of introducing a motion into the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, in which the purpose appears to be to cause hurt & division in the body of Christ, and to encourage violence (spiritual, and perhaps even physical) against the children of God who are differently made.

I am a gay child of God. I am fully devoted to Christ. I hold the position of music director in our church, First Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, Greensburg PA. I know of God's love for all his creation. There is enough Biblical research to show that the Bible does not address sexual orientation as we know it today. The verses chosen by many to "clobber" homosexuals are very often taken out of context, or selected for their seeming opposition to homosexuals while surrounding verses are ignored, but perhaps just as relevant. Case in point:
Leviticus 20:13 says that "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Yet, just 3 verses away in Leviticus 20:9 we read "For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." Are we to select the verses we choose to obey? Wouldn't it be better to do scholarly research guided by the Holy Spirit to discover what God is saying to us in these scriptures? I also submit Leviticus 11:10-12 as further proof of the disregard for scripture demonstrated by those who desire to use it to hurt God's gay children. I haven't heard of any Religious demonstrations outside of Red Lobster or any other seafood restaurant. Yet, the Bible clearly says that eating lobster and shrimp is an abomination, and one would presume the same kind of abomination that is used to describe homosexual behaviors.

So I ask you, what is your point? What do you hope to achieve by introducing this motion? I'll be in prayer for you, your church, and the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, that God will soften your heart and call you to a deeper understanding of what His love can do.

Grace and Peace,

Steve Clark

It's a step. I hope that it at least causes some reflection.

[SolInvictus]

Very well written - hope it may cause some reflection as well.

Blessings.

[Catt of the Garage]

Well written, and well thought out. Keep us updated if you get an answer.

I find that motion offensive, scary and deeply un-Christ-like. It puts me in mind of a recent discovery - a friend of mine confessed to me she was pregnant (she is not married, not even with the guy). She was upset, regretful, disappointed in herself - in a word, repentant. She attends a Baptist church, and I wasn't half as shocked at her revalation about her pregnancy, as I was when she revealed that she would be called to a disciplinary hearing on Wednesday and faced losing her membership. I am assured by my own minister (I go to a Baptist church) that this is not normal or widespread, but what sort of attitude does that kind of treatment imply? It is wrong on so many levels.

Even the best of churches must have things like that hidden away in their consitutions but it really distressed me to find people in 2005 who were still willing to act on such a vicious, vindictive and unChristian regulation.

[Zerbie]

That's precisely when someone most needs the support of the church. To rip it away at that moment suggests intentional cruelty and a desire to harm.

And sadly, that is how I have always viewed churches and why I have never been a member of any church or religious denomination. I don't want to be part of something that might drag me down and separate me from the spirit.

[Catt of the Garage]

To rip it away at that moment suggests intentional cruelty and a desire to harm.

Not necessarily, I'm afraid. It's easy to demonise people but I don't believe that most people who would adhere to a rule like that are acting out of "intentional cruelty". What is in their heads is probably not "Let us hurt her! She deserves it!". It is probably more "She has sinned! We must be seen to maintain our holiness and cannot compromise with sin" - in other words, a tragic distortion of Paul's teaching on maintaining purity in the Church and a huge blind spot to Jesus' teaching on logs and specks and forgiving 70x7 times.

The reaction most likely originates in fear. Fear of the Law; fear of stepping outwith the bounds of what is percieved as "God's will"; fear of God's rejection (we are all guilty of underestimating God's love); fear of parting with the flock. The deacons in a situation like that, who may be in other situations loving and Christlike, are falling into the trap of upholding the law of man in the place of the law of God. Jesus had to contend with this all the time (Pharisees).

I can understand your position, Zerbie, but it would not work for me. Having made a committment to Jesus as brother and the Father as my father, that makes me sister to everyone else who has been adopted as Jesus' brother or sister and the Father's child. So I don't have the option to reject the church and sneer at them from a distance. They are my family, I am constrained to live with them, love them, and challenge them if I feel they are wrong. Dislocation is not an option.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Catt of the Garage

Not necessarily, I'm afraid. It's easy to demonise people but I don't believe that most people who would adhere to a rule like that are acting out of "intentional cruelty". What is in their heads is probably not "Let us hurt her! She deserves it!". It is probably more "She has sinned! We must be seen to maintain our holiness and cannot compromise with sin" - in other words, a tragic distortion of Paul's teaching on maintaining purity in the Church and a huge blind spot to Jesus' teaching on logs and specks and forgiving 70x7 times.

The reaction most likely originates in fear. Fear of the Law; fear of stepping outwith the bounds of what is percieved as "God's will"; fear of God's rejection (we are all guilty of underestimating God's love); fear of parting with the flock. The deacons in a situation like that, who may be in other situations loving and Christlike, are falling into the trap of upholding the law of man in the place of the law of God. Jesus had to contend with this all the time (Pharisees).

from the Soulforce credo about the adversary: I believe that my adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have.

We've got to keep this in mind, along with other points in the credo that remind us that these people are acting out of their convictions, even if those beliefs are founded in misinformation.

I am reminded of Bruce Bawer's book, Stealing Jesus. One of his points about Fundamentalists is that so much of their belief relies on a victim/martyr concept. So while "christians" are persecuted here on earth for their beliefs, they will be rewarded in heaven. Expanding on that idea, fundies appear to take great joy in the "fact" that they will be getting into heaven while "others", like us, will not.

[Catt of the Garage]

Divine grace meets human nature. Again.

However, the amazing thing about Jesus is that he has triumphed over sin. This kind of legalism, petty cruelty and selfish fear falls firmly into the category of sin - so in other words, even if we feel overwhelmed by the hard-heartedness we can see in the church, society or even ourselves, there has to be hope. People can change. Look at John Newton (the author of Amazing Grace) - he was for many years the captain of a slave ship, but in his later life he campaigned for abolition. God can melt the hardest heart.

[SolInvictus]

Hey Steve,
agree w/ you about fundies in regards to victim/martyr mentality. Being raised in such an enviornment, they referred to themselves proudly as the "saved" & others as "apart of the World." However, they were eager in trying to convert others in the denomination. Unfortunantly, once "saved," certain behavior was expected: conservative beliefs, use of KJV or NIV only, submissive wives, etc... If one went too far from the "accepted views," he or she may be ostracized, sort of... Church members became "cliquish" - hope this makes sense.

Anyway, thank God for the progressive denominations who do not share such a mentality.

Blessings,
Sol Invictus

[pnggrad79]

Great job, well written. I am a recovering Southern Baptist. I am the lesbian daughter of a minister, and deacon. When I came out to my father and mother, my father told me that I was deceived, unsaved, lied to, and not very smart. He told me that if my two daughters succeeded in life, it would be in spite of me, not because of me. He said that I am not welcome in his home any longer if my wife comes with me. If this is the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, no thanks, I don't want it.
I think however, that Jesus would have never said anything like that. I think he would have climbed on that cross, died for me, and been resurrected just so I could have eternal life. My Bible says, "[B]Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." It doesn't qualify anything.

[keltic63]

pnggrad,
I am constantly amazed at how much we as humans want to add to the Gospel. My denomination attempts to keep it simple (but we all fail, right?) so the teaching in our church as the test of salvation, the test for membership is simply the question that Jesus posed to Peter:

Who do you say that I am?
the candidate for membership/Christian responds with Peter's answer: You are the Christ, the son of the Living God.

I am always moved by the simplicity of the statement and the abundance of God's mercy and blessings that flow from it.

[Geminem]

I think what you have done in the way of actively challenging that church group was a perfectly right thing to do....i thought that it was written in a very constructive way.

Has encouraged and stirred me to step out and begin actively challenging things myself....(will let you know action i take when i do it!)

I have spent many years in isolation with my own thoughts and understanding of jesus and his stance on sexuality...I think that these soulforce forums are fantastic because alot of the thoughts and stances that members are taking towards the issue...are exactly the same as things i have felt for a long time....

Wanted everyone to know that although i'm over in the UK, i'm finding you all such an encouragement and support....

Thanks. Gem

[sarahjane]

very nice Keltic, I hope the words fall on the good soil of their heart. We think alike! I have used the crab leg analogy myself. I think the thing that amazes me about fundimentalist is that they are so quick to point out "sin" of others...doesn't that make them a judge? a position God warns us against taking? Moreover if these Christians lable homosexuality a "sin" outlined in the Old Testement, why don't they acknowledge the blood of Christ sufficiant to take care of it and just leave ya'll alone? Lots of reasons, mostly having to do with pride and trying to redeem themselves by focusing on others, they don't understand the work of the cross for themselves, how can they for another ~ Sarah (colorado springs)

[keltic63]

they love this verse, sarah
Ephesians 4:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


and especially that phrase. I learned to get your guard up whenever someone started talking about "speaking the truth in love". it meant you were gonna get blasted.

It seems there are 2 types of Christians: Great Commission Christians (Go into all the world and preach the gospel so that they might be saved) and Great Commandment Christians ( love the lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself) You can see how Great Commission Christians could interpret their mission to "save" everyone would mean to define and eradicate sin. On the other hand, Great Commandment Christians can be wishy-washy when it comes to confronting sin, but are also very welcoming to all who want to know more. That helps explain why fundies are so intent on pointing out the sins of others.

edited to space it out for easier reading

[pnggrad79]

Keltic,
Do you believe that once we accept Jesus as our Savior that our sins past, present and future, are cast as far as the east is from the west? I do, and therefore, when I pray to God the Father, He doesn't look at me and count my sins against me, because they are already paid for. My question is this to the people like my family, who are so bent on throwing doctrine at me, telling me I am deceived and living in sin, why do you throw my sins in my face, when God doesn't? When they do this, it is presumed that homosexuality is a sin. I don't believe it is. The sin I committed was hiding behind a whole set of lies to myself, my family and my Lord. The sin was denying Jesus when I thought He couldn't love a gay person. No, when I came out it was the most honest, authentic thing I have ever done. It was like when I came out to God (as if He didn't already know) a weight was lifted off my shoulders and He said, "Ok, now you can be free." Since being involved in my church here in Houston, I have learned so much more about God and grace and mercy and love and acceptance, whereas before I was bound in chains of judgment and criticism. Now I refuse to put God in a box and tell Him who He can love, die for, and minister to. God can do anything. It is awfully arrogant to tell God what to do or assign to Him our own fears and prejudices, and corroborate it with the Bible.

[keltic63]

pnggrad: it looks like we're on the same page! I have this discussion with my dad occasionally (a pentecostal fundie, but not without his redeeming qualities) and he always uses the analogy of "dying in the arms of a harlot." That always makes me laugh! His point is that if someone accepts Jesus, they are obligated to "sin no more" and any sin that they commit would remove them from the state of grace. He has heard "Grace" preachers say that a child of God could be with a prostitute, have a heart attack and die, and still go to heaven, eventhough he was in the midst of a sinful act. I maintain that the salvation comes by God's grace, and according to Paul we work out that salvation on a daily basis. To me that means I'm going to sin, willfully or unwillfully, but God's grace is sufficient to cover my sin. My salvation lies in the act of recognizing God's grace in the act of sending Jesus to be our Christ.

[pnggrad79]

Amen, Keltic! Is your spiritual gift preaching, because honey, that dog will hunt! God is so much bigger than the tiny, constricted little boxes our human finite minds tend to put Him in. Thank God He is bigger than my mind can conceive and bigger than Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, and George W. Bush. He is bigger than my faults, failures and my homosexuality. I heard a preacher once, (in a gay church) say and this is so true, He said, "Be loud about what the Bible is loud about and quiet about what the Bible is quiet about." To me, the grace of God abounds in Scriptures, not the 6 misinterpreted verses that deal with homosexuality. Please! Falwell, Bush, and everyone else get a life! Be loud about how Jesus threw off his divinity to come die a cruel, horrible death so that He himself could be the payment for our sin. That is something to be loud about. Amen, brother, be loud about the wonderful matchless grace of our God.

[keltic63]

Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent,
we are silent." or so said Alexander Campbell, the founder of the denomination to which I belong, the Disciples of Christ.
I have given a sermon, and sometimes I go off on mini-sermons in private conversations, but at the moment I am waiting for more info from God about the call on my life.

[Bluestars399]

Your letter is very well written. I truly hope and pray that it allows Rev. Sanderson to re-evaluate his incredibly narrow and close-minded interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit is definitely working through you, and I pray that your letter hopefully makes a difference.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Bluestars399

Your letter is very well written. I truly hope and pray that it allows Rev. Sanderson to re-evaluate his incredibly narrow and close-minded interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit is definitely working through you, and I pray that your letter hopefully makes a difference.

Thanks. I pray that it does something too. One of the frustrating things is not knowing what it may have done. I have not received any response to the letter, and I'm guessing that I won't.

I've had some wandering thoughts about the original action that caused me to write to Rev. Sanderson. If this particular Baptist Convention would expel churches for being friendly to LGBT folks, what would happen if we all showed up at their church some Sunday morning? Not to demonstrate or make any kind of statement, just to join them in worship. If the greeters shake our hands, would that be considered as a friendly action worthy of expulsion from the convention? If several gay couples went to visit Rev. Sanderson's church, would he be obligated to prevent us from worshipping with them? If I lived closer, I think I might try to pull that off.

[Catt of the Garage]

To me that means I'm going to sin, willfully or unwillfully, but God's grace is sufficient to cover my sin. My salvation lies in the act of recognizing God's grace in the act of sending Jesus to be our Christ.

I'll second that.

If I were to really accept God's grace, really perceive the depth of his love for us and truly understand what he has done for me, I don't think I could bear to sin against him. At the times when I am closer to God and more aware of Him, I am better. At the times when I drift away, I am worse.

The point I am making is that, for a Christian who has accepted Jesus and been "set free from sin", sin is not a thing of the past; it is a symptom of drifting away from Jesus, and acting right is a symptom of coming close to him. It's easy to get the cause and effect the wrong way around and conclude that God loves us in proportion to our righteousness; but in reality we begin to act the right way, to really abandon sin, when we begin to really understand his love and acceptance. His love is unconditional, and gradually it heals us.

The confusion is as old as Christianity and there are some great bits in Paul's letters about it. In 2000 years we still have not fully grasped the reality that God accepts us as we are and works from there.