Conflicted gay/bi/questioning people - what do you wish you could say to them?

[Zerbie]

From what I've been following both on the 'net, and in some recent 3D conversations, I am feeling more and more concerned and hurt for those gay/bi/questioning people who are living in that grey area in between us activists on the one hand, and the anti-gay/ex-gay forces on the other.

I wish things would be calm enough socially that people could be allowed to come to terms with their feelings, their sexuality in their own time, safely, without suffering. But it doesn't seem to be that way.

I've heard of people walking out on their partners of many years to join ex-gay ministries/therapies. It makes me wonder what they were experiencing all the years they were in the relationship, that after all that time they still feel there is something wrong with them. What do you make of it? What would you say to those people if you had the chance to sit and talk with them?

When I first got involved in activism, a gay friend took me aside and told me to stop it. He said he tried to be "normal" and "failed," and that getting involved in this stuff would ruin my life. "Don't throw your life away over people like me. We aren't worth it." After a couple of statements like that from him, I stopped arguing and my stomach was sick for hours. If you had been the one he said that to, what would you say in response?

[BruceChris]

(But I would be awful at it. I think I'm at least a little better as a speach writer.)

Pretty much the same thing that I would like to say to most people about sex and sexuality. That my sexuality and yours, in whatever form they may take are a beautiful gift from God/dess. That sex is usually private and personal, but that sex is not dirty. That I do not believe that all of the fear, guilt and shame that we have grown up with surrounding sex is anything that God would have wished upon us. That it is a worthy and honorable goal to work on learning more about your own sexuality, accepting it, and finding joy, beauty, and self-esteem in it. That perhaps when they get a chance to meet people with similar sexualities, they may begin to like and admire them, maybe begin to see them as role models. That they have undoubtedly learned their attitudes from people who have a fear-based belief system that leads them to teach fear to others, but that it doesn't have to be that way. The happiest and healthiest people out there have learned to seek out and practice a love-based sytem. That they might be wise to seek out such people, and learn from them.

I would have to know the person, to try to tell them what they most needed to hear.

I may come back and edit this sometime. I like to edit my posts, and frequently do. I don't always get it right the first time.

Peace and Love, BruceChris

[Zerbie]

Thank you for responding Chris. Your post is beautiful, there is no need to edit it.



I posted this question because something recent in a 3D conversation prompted me to mull the matter over again, and so I wanted to hear from others. Especially those who have been there and come to a place of peace with their sexuality after suffering feelings of internal homophobia.

You may have hit upon something very important, Chris, with the role-modeling aspect.

[nowvoyager]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

You may have hit upon something very important, Chris, with the role-modeling aspect.

One of my favourite quotes is from our beloved Gandhi - "Be the change you wish to see in this world". I take this to mean that if I role model great behaviour, positive sexuality, and a dignified same-sex relationship, then I can be a positive influence on the homophobic and the internally homophobic. HOWEVER, sometimes that's not easy. Firstly, I aint perfect, alas , and that means some days I'm cranky or shy or fearful. And secondly sometimes it doesn't feel BIG enough - sometimes I crave an activist "Seize The Day" moment at odds with living a quiet message. I think that can happen when you have an opportunity to tell someone the kind of words that BruceChris says, which I thought terrific.

The other thing I was thinking, about internalised homophobia, is that I don't think it's a one off struggle and then you're healed. I'm well adjusted and actualised about my own sexuality, but negative feelings about it can creep up on me sometimes. When we live in a society where large groups of people think we're disgusting, and where our media-soaked imagery is almost always heterosexual, it's inevitable (kinda like having one of those bad body-image days when we're surrounded by thin-ness). When it does rear its ugly head, I pray, go out with GLBT friends, rent a positive movie. Or come here!!

I'd like to see positive out-and-proud people talk about this issue more in our communities, to reduce the impact and seriousness of IH before people leave families to participate in wicked ex-gay therapies. In which case I commend and thank you for starting the thread, darling Zerbie . Do others think IH strikes even the most activist-types out there?

[ProudGay40]

I had to get past before I could be a free man. That one thing was no caring what others close to me (and not close, society as a whole) think of me. I knew livng my true self and true life would mean that some would reject me or talk about me or condem me but before I came out I had to mentally decided that I would not hear, listen, care about what others thought or said about me. I became strong then. Strong to say this is me, I know God loves me and I want to live a happy loving life being gay and true to myself and true to others. It was a LONG road to get to that point for me and at times I still get a little bothered by others and thier beliefs and words but I fordge ahead living openly and proud and working to make it better for others who are in thier own struggles.

[SolApollo]

ProudGay40: I agree and understand your message. I, too (as many of us in the LGBT community), have dealt w/ my own internalized homophobia. My culture, a midwestern conservative background, told me to fear and hate LGBT people. Therefore, I hated myself a long time before finding peace and inner acceptance. Hence, my current activism.

Like you, it took me a long time too, but we all LGBT can get through these wilderness experiences - to help ourselves and others hurting too. Our strength can renew others. Like in Isaiah, "on the wings of eagles...I will not grow weary...the Lord sustains me" (paraphrased).

Peace
Sol

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

When I first got involved in activism, a gay friend took me aside and told me to stop it. He said he tried to be "normal" and "failed," and that getting involved in this stuff would ruin my life. "Don't throw your life away over people like me. We aren't worth it." After a couple of statements like that from him, I stopped arguing and my stomach was sick for hours. If you had been the one he said that to, what would you say in response?

Have you seen "Good Will Hunting" where Robin Williams holds Matt Damon as he breaks down?

The way I "hear" what that guy said... is that he's very close to breaking down like that. I would probably push him a little and then become a broken record of "I love you. You are important to me. God loves you. You are important to God. I love you...." And I would hold him until the tears dried and his breathing calmed...

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Have you seen "Good Will Hunting" where Robin Williams holds Matt Damon as he breaks down?

The way I "hear" what that guy said... is that he's very close to breaking down like that. I would probably push him a little and then become a broken record of "I love you. You are important to me. God loves you. You are important to God. I love you...." And I would hold him until the tears dried and his breathing calmed...

Wow. Would I had been in a stronger place when that conversation happened - it was eleven years ago. I was unsure of myself in every way back then. If he said that now, I would contradict the "not worth it" statements. I can do that now. I couldn't then.

What happened 11 years ago was that he grabbed both my arms, gave me a very stern look, and he ordered me to promise I would get out of activism. I told I would "think about it some more." He tightened his grip on my arms til it hurt (he was a much larger person so I had to let him) and told me he would not let go til I promised to drop the activism.

We would both still be standing there today, I suppose, if I hadn't "promised," but of course I didn't mean it. I left that conversation 100% committed to LGBT activism in large part BECAUSE of his reaction. When he later found out that I hadn't quit activism, he quit me, which was painful because he was a mentor-figure in my young life as a singer. He never spoke a word to me again. I sometimes wonder what his path has been since.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Wow. Would I had been in a stronger place when that conversation happened - it was eleven years ago. I was unsure of myself in every way back then. If he said that now, I would contradict the "not worth it" statements. I can do that now. I couldn't then.

What happened 11 years ago was that he grabbed both my arms, gave me a very stern look, and he ordered me to promise I would get out of activism. I told I would "think about it some more." He tightened his grip on my arms til it hurt (he was a much larger person so I had to let him) and told me he would not let go til I promised to drop the activism.

We would both still be standing there today, I suppose, if I hadn't "promised," but of course I didn't mean it. I left that conversation 100% committed to LGBT activism in large part BECAUSE of his reaction. When he later found out that I hadn't quit activism, he quit me, which was painful because he was a mentor-figure in my young life as a singer. He never spoke a word to me again. I sometimes wonder what his path has been since.

Man... this guy was pretty intense. My reaction to someone like him 11 years ago would have been very similar to yours.

[Zerbie]

Want to respond to everyone and say - Thank you - Keep 'em comin'!!!

Voyager, I love what you had to say. I believe living as a quiet example is the strongest, wisest, most powerful thing one can do. Because it is so quiet, you don't get to see any of the ripples it sends out into the world, so you wonder if there ARE any. . . there are.

Does internal homophobia strike everyone? At times perhaps. Years ago my buddies and I came up with the phrase, "the 3 a.m. doubts" to refer to internal homophobia striking at a vulnerable moment when you question things like, how does being LGBT impact my relationship with God? etc.

But I think it's more a case of doubting the impact of your actions than a case of IH when it comes to the activist. Speaking from my own experience, the last traces of IH was wiped out in one swoop from an amazing spiritual experience a number of years ago. I never doubt that anymore, faith consumes the space so thoroughly there isn't room to squeeze a piece of doubt into. Otoh, ALL the time I question whether I am doing any good floundering about activism, am I wasting my time lobbying, I am annoying my friends by approaching them and asking them to vote this way or that way, is what I am doing right? Am I becoming an ideologue blinded by causes? Yet I believe it's healthy to question and evaluate actions, strategies, ways of relating.

It becomes unhealthy if you question your intrinsic worth. Or God's love for you. You're there. That's all the evidence you need that God wants you here. If he didn't want you, you wouldn't be here. All the rest is verbal fencing, we win one, they win one. New challenge? Let's start all over. . .and there is no end to that.

Hello to 40!!! Getting past the point of caring what others (even strangers !) is a necessary step if you are to be psychologically free. There are plenty of people out there who never get to that step. They find the IDEA of rejection too painful. That makes me feel sad. The way I see it, why SHOULD we care what others think? It can be frustrating if you have to deal with someone on a regular basis who has utterly missed the mark on what you're about, but you can't control that. You have to consider the source. What's amazing is when people you respect, admire, and like also like to be around you. That's the best! But I don't believe you can quite get there if you are trying to hide who you are in order to garner approval from "society."

[SBP]

I would tell them that they ARE "normal". Despite the almost constant barrage of misinformation from those whose myopic views of the world are threatened by anything and everything even remotely different from what they are "comfortable" with. Human sexuality, like everything in nature can be applied to the so-called "Bell Curve". Its expression ranges from 1-10, with less than 2% being at the extreme ends and the 96% falling somewhere in between.

As for the stopping the activism because "people like me aren't worth it", I feel a bottomless well of sadness that he feels that way. It shows that he has a very low opinion of his own worth. Because you know what? We are ALL worth it~!!! And beyond that, we often have the tendency to look at what we do NOW as only for our own benefits. Not so! In fact, we may or may NOT see much tangible benefit from this struggle in the short term. The reason we continue to "fight the good fight", is for those who will follow us. All of the progress we enjoy today, despite the distance we have yet to go, we do so because those that went before US paid the price through their determination that the status quo should not remain so. Remember Stonewall people!

Lastly, we live in a world where there is so little love. It should never be discouraged. Love is strengthened by adversity, not destroyed by it! Never forget that! Love is NEVER....EVER....wrong~!!!

Peace 2 U All~

[Vortex]

That’s what if feels like sometimes, when fate seems to be pulling you in every direction. Every direction that is except your own. Sometimes you are that bold, charismatic and prophetic leader fighting the good fight, sacrificing all for something greater than yourself. Other times though you want nothing to do with that image of what could be, you are reminded that you’re still that scared little kid, always crying, robbed of innocence, and afraid of his own shadow. Most of the time though you are who ‘they’ want you to be, society that is. If they want conformity, you conform yourself. If they want simplicity, you simplify yourself. And if they want boys to think only of girls and vice versa.

Its okay brother they tell me, you don’t have to live by societies rules. Don’t be afraid to die for what you believe in. Afraid to die, maybe, but I can think of greater fears. Don’t be afraid to be who you are. But who am I? What if I do not know? Do you know? Does Anyone? Which face will you be today, and which is the true? I’m not sure myself anymore. Hawthorne was right, it is bewildering. I used to think that story about man coming from clay was funny. I guess the jokes on me, we are clay, ready to be molded and used by society, by God. So who are you today? Are you still fighting the good fight, afraid of your own shadow, simplifying, and conforming? Are you still…, afraid to live?


Thanks for starting this thread Zerbie.


Vortex

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Man... this guy was pretty intense. My reaction to someone like him 11 years ago would have been very similar to yours.

He was protecting me. It was a role he adopted when we met - mentor/protector. I was so young! He was 10-15 years older, and took on a sort of older brother role. He used to tell me, he thought I was fragile and needed someone to take care of me. Then when he found out I was getting involved in gay rights, all his own fears came up, I guess. He told me the political/social situation was scaring him, and that I didn't know how dangerous it was. That I was throwing away my life for a worthless cause and that society would never change. That it would cost me my career.

During that same conversation he told me that if they came up with a new reparative therapy that he thought actually worked, he would leave his partner and try the therapy. Man! I left that conversation feeling heavy-hearted, which I continued to do for days. And that bit about "I would leave my partner for a new ex-gay therapy" rings in my memory all these years later, and I wonder what his life became since we last spoke that day.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

He was protecting me. It was a role he adopted when we met - mentor/protector. I was so young! He was 10-15 years older, and took on a sort of older brother role. He used to tell me, he thought I was fragile and needed someone to take care of me. Then when he found out I was getting involved in gay rights, all his own fears came up, I guess. He told me the political/social situation was scaring him, and that I didn't know how dangerous it was. That I was throwing away my life for a worthless cause and that society would never change. That it would cost me my career.

During that same conversation he told me that if they came up with a new reparative therapy that he thought actually worked, he would leave his partner and try the therapy. Man! I left that conversation feeling heavy-hearted, which I continued to do for days. And that bit about "I would leave my partner for a new ex-gay therapy" rings in my memory all these years later, and I wonder what his life became since we last spoke that day.

Man, that is so sad...

[SBP]

I agree, it's heartbreaking that anyone could so doubt their own capacity for making a difference, as well as so little faith in the rest of humanity to grow and to change albeit slowly.

"Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. Indeed, that's all that ever has." ~Margaret Mead

[LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT]

Be yourself - and find a place and career where you can be YOU...... There is no way that I will engage in blatant behavior if I am on the aircraft....especially international business first service supervision.

HOWEVER, everybody I work with knows that I am gay, and more, active in our gay association.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT

Be yourself - and find a place and career where you can be YOU...... There is no way that I will engage in blatant behavior if I am on the aircraft....especially international business first service supervision.

HOWEVER, everybody I work with knows that I am gay, and more, active in our gay association.

My ex was a flight attendant for a major airline. He's tall and stocky/muscly... add that to him being gay AND greek AND he grew up in NYC. (Just imagine "My Big Fat Greek Wedding") He was very confident, especially on his job... and flew as international purser, etc... He l-o-v-e-d to be challenged. Lord help you if it was something about his heritage or his being gay. Those plastic cuffs *really* work.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT

Be yourself - and find a place and career where you can be YOU......
.

I agree with this advice, if there is a way for you to live in an environment where you can be out, be just part of the group, and not have to deal with being closeted, it helps immensely.

Yet what about those who are conflicted about their sexuality? Who don't want to be "out," who in fact believe their sexuality is wrong? What can we say to those people that won't sound empty?

I like what BruceChris said about sex not being dirty. But what about those who still feel that their sexuality is?

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I agree with this advice, if there is a way for you to live in an environment where you can be out, be just part of the group, and not have to deal with being closeted, it helps immensely.

Yet what about those who are conflicted about their sexuality? Who don't want to be "out," who in fact believe their sexuality is wrong? What can we say to those people that won't sound empty?

I like what BruceChris said about sex not being dirty. But what about those who still feel that their sexuality is?

I always talk about God's unconditional love for them. Regardless of what they've done or not done... said or not said... etc.

Then, maybe later we'd talk about verses and theology... But I constantly remind them of God's love.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I always talk about God's unconditional love for them. Regardless of what they've done or not done... said or not said... etc.

Then, maybe later we'd talk about verses and theology... But I constantly remind them of God's love.

We see eye to eye on this one. I am absolutely certain that God's love is unconditional. I *know* it is.

One thing that strikes me about those who argue against God's acceptance of gay people is, they seem to lack faith. Like there is a limit to God's infinite love. That God's patience runs out at a certain limit. Sounds to me like they lack faith in God being God, always.

Infinite. That means it never stops. It never runs out.
Unconditional. That means no matter what. No "ifs."